Erik Marsh: ZETTERBURG OUT: Herniated disc for Z, Datsyuk still questionable

Erik Marsh: ZETTERBURG OUT: Herniated disc for Z, Datsyuk still questionable
- Erik Marsh

At least spell his name right in the title. I mean it is only HB but you should still at least try

From what I've heard so far, the plan is for Franzen to center the first line with Nyquist and Bertuzzi (who looks like he'll be ready tomorrow) on the wings. And Helm-Alfie-Abdelkader is staying intact.

While I like the idea of moving Franzen to center generally, it really says a lot that even with both Datsyuk AND Zetterberg out, a certain $4.9 million free agent is still marooned on the 3rd/4th line.

My feeling is that, while it's still too early to write Weiss off entirely, there are really two possible outcomes here -- either he breaks out of his slump and has a good finish to the year, or the Red Wings are forced to use their last compliance buy-out on him in the off-season. He was terrible in limited time last year (which was plagued by a wrist injury that is possibly still affecting him), he has struggled very badly this year, and if he doesn't show any signs of returning to the player he used to be in the upcoming months it's just too big a gamble not to cut bait with 4 years and $20 million left.

But Weiss is not going to ever pick up his game playing 10 minutes a night with 2 slow, aging wingers, one of whom (Cleary) is so bad he can barely get on the scoresheet with the best set-up man in the universe feeding him pucks. The Red Wings either have to give Weiss an opportunity to prove he deserves his contract, a real opportunity, or I think he's as good as gone.

So, this seems to be the time. I would promote Weiss to the first line with Franzen and Nyquist. Give him some real powerplay time. See what he can do with the full responsibility of stepping and being a core contributor -- that's why they signed him to that big deal after all.

Yeah, maybe it's a disaster and he fails completely to handle the responsibility, but then at least you KNOW it isn't going to work out. Right now he had a rough first few weeks, then got demoted to a spot in the lineup where he couldn't win no matter what he did.

And now that I look again, it seems like Bertuzzi might not be ready after all.

Emmerton getting the call up, because he is literally one of only 3 players in the organization (and the only one in Grand Rapids, as apart from Toledo) cheap enough to add. Even Glendening would put them over the cap. The Wings would have to put Datsyuk on LTIR to get a look at, say, Jurco, and that would mean Datsyuk would be ineligible for at least the next 8 games based on when his injury occurred.

Uggggghhhhhhh

And now that I look again, it seems like Bertuzzi might not be ready after all.

Emmerton getting the call up, because he is literally one of only 3 players in the organization (and the only one in Grand Rapids, as apart from Toledo) cheap enough to add. Even Glendening would put them over the cap. The Wings would have to put Datsyuk on LTIR to get a look at, say, Jurco, and that would mean Datsyuk would be ineligible for at least the next 8 games based on when his injury occurred.

Uggggghhhhhhh
- Sven22

Maybe Weiss gets that top 6 look you referred to above. For them to play Emmerton above Weiss in the lineup would suggest a serious lack of trust in Weiss' game. If he does get moved up, at least team speed won't suffer. You could plan on a Emmerton, Samuelsson, Cleary line playing very little, so as long as thy don't get scored on, it shouldn't hurt too much. Interesting to have a team with 2 set PK forward units that have no one on the fourth line. Helm/Abdelkader and Miller/Andersson played all 8 minutes of PK time on Sunday.

Maybe Weiss gets that top 6 look you referred to above. For them to play Emmerton above Weiss in the lineup would suggest a serious lack of trust in Weiss' game. If he does get moved up, at least team speed won't suffer. You could plan on a Emmerton, Samuelsson, Cleary line playing very little, so as long as thy don't get scored on, it shouldn't hurt too much. Interesting to have a team with 2 set PK forward units that have no one on the fourth line. Helm/Abdelkader and Miller/Andersson played all 8 minutes of PK time on Sunday.
- JohnnySoze

PK is the only thing left that Cleary isn't awful at, so I was genuinely surprised to see that Abelkader picked up his regular shift on Sunday. Emmerton is also a regular PKer when he plays. I'll be interested to see what the combos are tomorrow. From my perspective as couch GM, the less those two guys (Cleary and Emmerton) play at even strength the better, so I would welcome them getting a decent share of the PK minutes in exchange for less even strength time (and more even strength time for the likes of Helm, Anderson, and Abdelkader).

And yes, if Weiss is not in the top 6 with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, AND Bertuzzi all out that is a serious red flag. Especially if you want to keep the Helm line together, you gotta put Weiss on the other scoring line.

Additionally: if Cleary starts on the top line tomorrow, I think by the weekend I might have to check myself into rehab until at least one of the Eurotwins returns.

Additionally: if Cleary starts on the top line tomorrow, I think by the weekend I might have to check myself into rehab until at least one of the Eurotwins returns.
- Sven22

With the back to back Friday/Saturday (road game to home game) I wonder how much the travel will affect Datsyuk's return. All three games are against very beatable teams, but it will be interesting to see how they handle his return if the team struggles. Will he travel to NJ as a gametime decision if tomorrow goes very poorly?

Cleary on the top line would produce a similar (read: opposite) reaction from me. The whiskey will flow...

At least spell his name right in the title. I mean it is only HB but you should still at least try
- FinAddict

fial indeed

Tell me you meant to spell his name wrong.....

Tell me you meant to spell his name wrong.....
- bigboypants

this is hockeybuzz.

From what I've heard so far, the plan is for Franzen to center the first line with Nyquist and Bertuzzi (who looks like he'll be ready tomorrow) on the wings. And Helm-Alfie-Abdelkader is staying intact.

While I like the idea of moving Franzen to center generally, it really says a lot that even with both Datsyuk AND Zetterberg out, a certain $4.9 million free agent is still marooned on the 3rd/4th line.

My feeling is that, while it's still too early to write Weiss off entirely, there are really two possible outcomes here -- either he breaks out of his slump and has a good finish to the year, or the Red Wings are forced to use their last compliance buy-out on him in the off-season. He was terrible in limited time last year (which was plagued by a wrist injury that is possibly still affecting him), he has struggled very badly this year, and if he doesn't show any signs of returning to the player he used to be in the upcoming months it's just too big a gamble not to cut bait with 4 years and $20 million left.

But Weiss is not going to ever pick up his game playing 10 minutes a night with 2 slow, aging wingers, one of whom (Cleary) is so bad he can barely get on the scoresheet with the best set-up man in the universe feeding him pucks. The Red Wings either have to give Weiss an opportunity to prove he deserves his contract, a real opportunity, or I think he's as good as gone.

So, this seems to be the time. I would promote Weiss to the first line with Franzen and Nyquist. Give him some real powerplay time. See what he can do with the full responsibility of stepping and being a core contributor -- that's why they signed him to that big deal after all.

Yeah, maybe it's a disaster and he fails completely to handle the responsibility, but then at least you KNOW it isn't going to work out. Right now he had a rough first few weeks, then got demoted to a spot in the lineup where he couldn't win no matter what he did.
- Sven22

Pretty sure teams can't use a compliance buyout on a player they signed after the lockout ended so they would have to use a regular buyout which would count against the cap. Wings better hope Weiss gets his game back and starts fitting in or the only way to get rid of his cap hit would be to trade him.

Weiss will get some shifts with the top unit (Q and Franzen). Babs isn't announcing it to 1) Make Weiss work for it 2) Not put pressure on him.

People need to relax regarding him slumping. No one is going to pull the plug on him. Would he get traded 2-3 years out when and if some of the draft picks mature? Possible, but we are 30 games in to a 5 year deal on a guy who had consistently put up 60 points and played on a #1 line. The guy is going through a rough spot. He needs and will work through it. Now would be a good time.

Pretty sure teams can't use a compliance buyout on a player they signed after the lockout ended so they would have to use a regular buyout which would count against the cap. Wings better hope Weiss gets his game back and starts fitting in or the only way to get rid of his cap hit would be to trade him.
- dcz28

You're absolutely right, I had forgotten that. Good catch.

Weiss will get some shifts with the top unit (Q and Franzen). Babs isn't announcing it to 1) Make Weiss work for it 2) Not put pressure on him.

People need to relax regarding him slumping. No one is going to pull the plug on him. Would he get traded 2-3 years out when and if some of the draft picks mature? Possible, but we are 30 games in to a 5 year deal on a guy who had consistently put up 60 points and played on a #1 line. The guy is going through a rough spot. He needs and will work through it. Now would be a good time.
- MedicineMan

Long post alert. Sorry in advance.

The lack of scoring from Weiss, significant though it is (7 points in 39 games over the last 2 years), is not what I find most concerning; I'm more concerned about what's going on in the game when Weiss is on the ice.

The Red Wings are getting absolutely hammered in terms of puck possession and shot attempts whenever Cleary or Weiss is on the ice. Both those guys are sporting on-ice Corsis of between -11 and -12, which means that when either Weiss or Cleary is on the ice, the Red Wings have allowed almost 12 more shot attempts against than they've generated per 60 minutes of even strength time. This is despite the fact that Weiss has had the benefit of taking over 60% of his non-neutral zone faceoffs in the attacking zone, more than any other regular Wings forward. No other regular forward besides Weiss or Cleary has an unadjusted Corsi worse than -1.

Now I'll go ahead and be the first to admit that there is a lot more to being a good hockey player than just your Corsi, especially over just a 22-game sample. But that is a breathtaking gap. And you can see the effect by looking at Weiss' individual shot generation. His shooting percentage isn't that far off his career average this year; he's just not shooting the puck nearly as much (25 shots in 22 games). Part of that is less ice time, but it also reflects how much time Weiss has spent bottled up his own zone chasing the puck, rather than creating chances.

I wouldn't say it's time to pull the plug on Weiss, and I do believe he'll improve significantly by year's end. His current performance is just too far removed from his established track record for me to believe it's all real. And despite his zone start advantage I think he's been put in a difficult spot that makes it hard for him to establish his game. The Weiss-Alfredsson-Franzen line struggled out of the gate, and while Franzen and Alfredsson were reassigned to different scoring line until they clicked, Weiss got his minutes cut and found himself forced to drag Samuelsson and especially Cleary around the ice. Nobody is going to have much success in that situation, not even Datsyuk. And Weiss is no Datsyuk.

Let me reiterate what I said in an above post - I think the time is now to hand Weiss the keys, make him your No. 1 (or at least 1B) center and give him some games, a real opportunity, to see if he can adjust. I do not believe Weiss is nearly as bad as his current numbers would suggest.

But I also think it's reasonable to start getting concerned, really concerned, about how much of the problem is really just bad linemates and adjusting to the system and how much of the problem is more permanent. Although the sample sizes are not ideal, the data at least supports the suggestion that Weiss' struggles actually began BEFORE he came to Detroit - he had only 4 points in 17 games and had the worst Corsi among Panther forwards last season (after having been a very average possession player during his prime). I think at this point it's legitimate to wonder whether age and/or injuries, rather than merely adjustment to a new system, is behind some of those struggles. Which is not fun to contemplate considering how much he has left on his deal.

From what I've heard so far, the plan is for Franzen to center the first line with Nyquist and Bertuzzi (who looks like he'll be ready tomorrow) on the wings. And Helm-Alfie-Abdelkader is staying intact.

While I like the idea of moving Franzen to center generally, it really says a lot that even with both Datsyuk AND Zetterberg out, a certain $4.9 million free agent is still marooned on the 3rd/4th line.

My feeling is that, while it's still too early to write Weiss off entirely, there are really two possible outcomes here -- either he breaks out of his slump and has a good finish to the year, or the Red Wings are forced to use their last compliance buy-out on him in the off-season. He was terrible in limited time last year (which was plagued by a wrist injury that is possibly still affecting him), he has struggled very badly this year, and if he doesn't show any signs of returning to the player he used to be in the upcoming months it's just too big a gamble not to cut bait with 4 years and $20 million left.

But Weiss is not going to ever pick up his game playing 10 minutes a night with 2 slow, aging wingers, one of whom (Cleary) is so bad he can barely get on the scoresheet with the best set-up man in the universe feeding him pucks. The Red Wings either have to give Weiss an opportunity to prove he deserves his contract, a real opportunity, or I think he's as good as gone.

So, this seems to be the time. I would promote Weiss to the first line with Franzen and Nyquist. Give him some real powerplay time. See what he can do with the full responsibility of stepping and being a core contributor -- that's why they signed him to that big deal after all.

Yeah, maybe it's a disaster and he fails completely to handle the responsibility, but then at least you KNOW it isn't going to work out. Right now he had a rough first few weeks, then got demoted to a spot in the lineup where he couldn't win no matter what he did.
- Sven22

100 percent agree Weiss as a buyout is a realistic option if his play over the final 4.5 months continues. That being said, lot of hockey left to play. Agree he needs to play with better options than Cleary and Sammy. Even if they can't use a compliance buyout, with the rising salary cap (suggestions of up to $90 million in 4-5 years time), they can absorb the cap hit that would result from cutting the chord with Weiss if his contribution remains at the same level of the past two months.